In 1777, Dr Samuel Johnson said:
“When a man is tired of London, he’s tired of life.”
And 250 years later (almost), not much has changed! London remains a vibrant international city with exciting work and travel opportunities.
To help you learn more about living and working in London, Katie Rosser interviewed our UK partners, Totum.
In this podcast you will learn:
- Which roles are in high demand
- Which firms are hiring
- How to get a visa to work in London
To learn more, read our Working in London career guide.
And of course, if you want to work in London, the first step is to talk to us so we can connect you with our associates at Totum.
Katie Rosser: [00:00:03]
Hello and welcome to the Seldon Rosser podcast, where we and our guests discuss how to build a flourishing career and marketing, business development and communications in professional services. I’m Katie Rosser and I’m Graham Seldon and we are Seldon Rosser.
Katie Rosser: [00:00:25]
I’m here in London with our Alliance Partners, Totum, today to talk about the trends happening in the London market. I’m here with Rebecca Ellis and Lacey Near. Rebecca, what’s your role at Totum?
Rebecca Ellis: [00:00:36]
Hi, Katie. I’m a Director at Totum and I work in the marketing & business development team here. I typically recruit more senior roles in London. So, kind of from the senior manager to director level opportunities.
Katie Rosser: [00:00:46]
And Lacey, your role?
Lacey Near: [00:00:50]
So I work closely with Rebecca here but on the more junior end of the market, typically recruiting roles at about assistant executive level up to mid manager, which in the UK is around 60-65 thousand pounds.
Katie Rosser: [00:01:02]
It’s great to come and be here today to talk to you about the London market. We’ve been working with you guys at Totum for gosh over 15 years now in some form or other. It’s been a long time. And we’ve had some great successes. We’ve placed a lot of people together, whether you’ve introduced us to people from this market moving to Australia or vice versa. Some recent wins in the London market. So it’s definitely a real possibility for candidates in Asia PAC to come into this market.
Rebecca Ellis: [00:01:31]
Katie Rosser: [00:01:33]
So what’s happening in the London market, Rebecca?
Rebecca Ellis: [00:01:35]
It’s incredibly busy in terms of numbers of opportunities. And, you know, at the moment we haven’t seen any changes in terms of Brexit. Law firms are still recruiting. And interestingly, over last few years we’ve seen numbers in business development departments increasing rather than decreasing. And that’s the same actually across the UK nationally. So it’s not just about London for Totum. We recruit in major city hubs in London as well. So if you’re looking for a role in Manchester, Birmingham, Leeds, Bristol, you know, we’ve got clients in all of those areas and some of the firms are the national firms are really building some of their centralised teams out in those areas as well as building them in London. So there’s opportunities across the UK really, which I think is really important to talk about. In terms of the market, the trends, the kind of things we’re seeing I think are typical of a lot of the global law firms that you see in Asia. So, for example, you know, numbers of the firms are continuing to develop their sector route to market and we’re seeing therefore an increase in numbers of people aligned to the sector rather than practice groups where typically you historically it may have been very much a practice group aligned focus. And so existing sector teams are definitely growing and firms haven’t done that before are increasing headcount in their sectors. CRM teams we’re seeing are being created in firms that haven’t had them before. People that have had them are just increasing their CRM teams in size. And interestingly, with the sort of pressures from clients, particularly the financial services sector, we’ve seen two Magic Circle firms recently, high procurement specialists to do kind of panel manager, contract manager roles sitting within the CRM function, purely responsible for that element of the client care, which is interesting. And we’ve seen some of the more junior roles in CRM coming up as well.
Katie Rosser: [00:03:30]
So do you find that at the exec level that roles are a bit more set to and client focused as well Lacey?
Lacey Near: [00:03:35]
Somewhat definitely not as much at the more senior end. I think that for sort of BD executive, senior exec manager, it’s still more of a focus at practice level. But I think that’s better at the end of your career because your able to sit with a defined group of partners and stakeholders and build those relationships and kind of learn how to advise before you then go into a cross practice cross jurisdictional sector role like you tend to a manager. So there is that more solid and slightly more defined career path that really helps people repel and get through the ranks quicker, when you’re in a practice focus. Some of the interesting things happening in the London and UK market, I should say, at the moment are more on the kind of comms and digital and marketing roles. They’ve traditionally been a smaller part of the BD & marketing function, but they are really coming into their own. We’re seeing a lot of positions focused on campaign management, on digital, social media, specific positions coming up, and some really exciting opportunities for people to be slightly more creative. And I think that because particularly in the London market, the teams are a lot bigger. You know, there’s opportunity for you to be more specific in your role, if you’re a marketer. Events roles are still pretty much staying the same. But it’s very much on that digital piece. And I think the firms are wising up to having to do a bit more PR and about branding, too.
Katie Rosser: [00:05:08]
This is very similar to what we’re seeing in the Australian market actually. And just to your point about digital and social media, for a moment we find in that area firms are looking for people from outside Professional services and a lot of the time. And so it can be a good opportunity to sort of get into law, perhaps some big four accounting or property financial services, because they they’re a bit further ahead, dare I say, than some of the law firms does. Does the same happen in in the UK market?
Lacey Near: [00:05:36]
Yes definitely. You know there’s still a lot of those positions that we’re getting in marketing campaigns, digital are new roles to firms. And, you know, people need to come from somewhere and want you know, they want fresh ideas. They’re investing in these new positions and growing these teams in order to make themselves stand out. And, you know, often it’s quite difficult to do so when you’re hiring people that have only ever been in one sector. So, there’s certainly opportunities for those already in Law firms, as there always is, but definitely an exciting chance for someone to move in. And even looking at financial services or some of the other consulting firms and even media agencies again, dare I say, or agencies that are comms and digital agencies, I should say, that are working with financial professional services firms. And moving in-house could be an exciting opportunity for them as well.
Katie Rosser: [00:06:25]
Katie Rosser: [00:06:27]
And Rebecca to your point, some client and sector from from outside looking in over in Sydney and observing the London market, I tend to see that there are more people coming from set into professional services than that I see in Australia, perhaps even at senior manager level from telco, pharma, fin services. That’s my observation. Am I right? And if so, why does it work? Why are firms doing that?
Rebecca Ellis: [00:06:54]
There are independents often on the firm and the CMO, chief marketing officer, the director of business development. You know, their level of mind, bringing in somebody from outside of the sector and also the sector group leaders as well. A lot of firms will come to the market saying that they are looking for deep sector knowledge. It’s very difficult I think, if you don’t have that experience to move into some of the sector roles. So they do look at industry and they do look in other professional services organisations where people are aligned to that particular industry sector. We had a recent incident where we were working with a global firm who were looking for somebody for their infrastructure sector and the director business development and the global director really wanted us to focus on finding somebody from the rail sector. So we spent a long time talking to people from the outside. And that was fascinating because it was an area that I hadn’t really done a lot of work in before. So we were finding our way through that – mapping the market, talking to different people and standing where there were some crossovers and synergies. And we did play somebody into the role who’s there and then having a great time that, you know, finding it fascinating, moving in such a different environment. But the partners really respect the level of conversation he’s able to have with them about the industry and knowing that industry.
Rebecca Ellis: [00:08:12]
So I think there’s an ongoing kind of push from people. It’s always easier to take someone who knows their way around a law firm than knowing their way around the sector. And yet there’s a perceived risk attached. I think that firms just need to be really able to spot the talent and understand what they’re looking for when they’re looking into other sectors and spend some time thinking about that and understanding where it can where it can work and where it might not work. But also, once you bring them on, really investing the time, you know, it doesn’t work all the time. But I think sometimes it’s because firms genuinely don’t invest and give the person the time, the support that they need to get up to speed in a very different environment. And that comes from partner time. But it also comes from marketing business development colleagues and L&D and needs to be really integrated. Time we’re talking to a coaching business at the moment about potentially things are some coaching for three to six months with people who’ve moved into the sector for the first time. And I think that, you know, that would be great if that happens. Yes. Amazing opportunity for us and for the clients, really. I just think it’s about our investment.
Katie Rosser: [00:09:19]
It’s a great value add for Totum as well. So be involved in that
Rebecca Ellis: [00:09:24]
Yeah. You know, that’s why I hope that clients want it, because I think that sometimes don’t do that in a way that perhaps they should.
Katie Rosser: [00:09:30]
Yeah, well we’re starting to see a similar trend in Australia, but certainly not as ingrained in the market as I see in London. So we’re following suit. We’ve had a few similar campaigns to been fun.
Katie Rosser: [00:09:46]
You mentioned other locations outside London. Am I right that those roles might be a little bit more generalist or are there firms using other locations as as hubs which support the London teams? How do those roles work?
Rebecca Ellis: [00:10:01]
Well, it really varies massively because know in the UK you’ve got global organisations such as DLA or Eversheds are know huge global businesses. And so they often will have very specialist roles in Leeds or Manchester because their offices are very big. So you will have a practice group or sector group where some of the leadership roles will be based there. So smaller firms may have more generalist roles. Often it depends on where the practice group heads sit. So you know where the best talent is. Frankly, most people will move around, obviously around the network of offices. Some firms are moving their teams, centralized team. So, for example, we’ve got teams now in Glasgow, Birmingham, Manchester from some of the bigger firms in London, Liverpool, Belfast. And those roles tend to be some of the more junior roles or they tend to be specialist roles like digital or environment, where the kind of operations elements of a department can be based and they don’t need to be partner facing in the same way. Some interests will get roles in smaller firms and the specialist firms out there that are leadership roles in the whole firm.
Katie Rosser: [00:11:06]
Yeah, interesting. So one of the things I wanted to focus on today was what candidates might expect if they’re looking to move to the UK market. So what is the culture and life like working in London, for example?
Lacey Near: [00:11:22]
So for the executive market, you know, London’s very lively place. It’s great. There’s a heck of a lot going on. It’s a particularly attractive proposition for those may be looking at the Tier 5 youth mobility visa coming in for a couple of years. And you can get a job relatively easily because there are a heck of a lot of firms in London. And as I mentioned earlier, there’s a real variety of roles. So if you are looking to kind of travel and work at the same time and be able to advance your career, then coming to London or or the UK. I can’t speak for the UK cities because I’m a London person myself and I’ve been in zone one or two for about the last seven years. So, there’s definitely a lot to do and a lot to keep you going in London. But I hear that other cities are very good as well.
Katie Rosser: [00:12:09]
Well, as a northerner, I just need to jump in and say you’ll having a great time in Manchester, Leeds, Newcastle as well. But yeah. London life is also dynamic.
Lacey Near: [00:12:18]
Yeah, there’s lots of options. So, you know, I’ve helped a lot of people and I’ve had friends as well that have sort of done it vice versa, going to Australia in particular for a couple of years to gain that experience. And if you do find that it will propel your career because there are a lot of opportunities here. So, yes, it’s fun and there’s a lot going on. But you can develop your skills and gain some experience in a different market at the same time.
Katie Rosser: [00:12:44]
Yeah, absolutely. Just wandering round, walking to your offices, giving myself a bit of a walking tour this morning. I’m just reminded how dynamic and beautiful and full of history the city is. I think it’s one of those cities that really everyone should experience working in at some point in their career. But that’s my view.
Lacey Near: [00:12:59]
Yeah definitely. I mean, one of the best things about London is you’re walking down the street and you hear five, six, seven different languages at any given time. It’s so multicultural. And that’s evident in particularly in the legal sector, because there are specialist lawyers that come from all over Europe and the globe really to work there. So you’re really tapped into such a global market by being in the London market and in the London office of these firms. And a lot of the global roles and the global teams are headed up from London. So you get access to those really senior stakeholders, which is, you know, incredible at any stage of your career.
Katie Rosser: [00:13:38]
Lacey, you mentioned visas there. How easy or hard is it for people to get a visa? Perhaps you can focus on executive level first and then, Rebecca, tell us about the senior candidates.
Lacey Near: [00:13:51]
So because of the point in your career and the relative age that tends to be the youth ability is probably the most common option that we have. And that gives you two years working in London and complete freedom to apply to any fund that there is out there. So that’s probably the most common option that we have or option that we see, I should say. There are a lot of people that come over and realise that they have ancestry as well. And that helps because that means you can stay for five years and then actually apply for indefinite leave to remain. And that happens more often than not as people get tempted into the London market and London life. It can be quite difficult because not all firms sponsor, to be quite honest with you. However, if you have worked in large global progressive firms in any market, then firms will want to hear about it. You know, if you are committed to that process, then we can certainly have a conversation. We can’t guarantee anything, but certainly working in those larger global firms for at least a few years will help that application move forward.
Katie Rosser: [00:14:56]
So would it be the same as my part of the world that if somebody has gone in for a couple of years, say, on that youth mobility visa and they’ve got their feet under the table and they’re doing really well, that they’d have more chance at sponsorship than coming and asking for that right away?
Lacey Near: [00:15:11]
Yes, definitely. Yeah. There’s been a few cases that I can think of off the top of my head where that’s happened. And it’s because in the legal sector is risk averse and they want to know what it is that they’re sponsoring and what, you know, what can you contribute? By coming into their offices and what are they committing to, hopefully in an indefinite basis. So if you’ve got two years where you’ve built relationships with those stakeholders and with your colleagues and really proved your capabilities, then of course they’re going to be more likely to make that choice and and buy into you physically.
Katie Rosser: [00:15:47]
Yeah. And I should actually say for people listening to the podcast, there will be some notes that go along with this that actually talk about the different visas available. So if you’re hearing us refer to different types of visas and want to know more of the detail, go and have a look at that note the London market on our website. So at the executive level, then staying focused there for a minute, can you get people a role before they land in London, perhaps on that youth mobility? Or do you need people to be at that stage of their life where they put their backpack on and turn up and walk from interview to interview until you get a role?
Lacey Near: [00:16:22]
Oh, completely. Yeah. You know, one of the wonderful things about a lot the firms we’re working with is they do have global offices. So more often than not, they will be able to conduct visa interviews in the local office to where you might be based, as well as being very happy to do Skype interviews. And you know, firms know that in order to secure the best talent, they have to be as agile as possible. And quite frankly, the time difference sometimes helps with booking in interviews as well. Yeah, definitely start the process. And sometimes firms will, depending on their seniority and depending on sort of how much ownership over a partner group or what stakeholders you have, they may want you to meet that person in London before they formally offer you the role, but they can at the very least get that process moving. And there are certainly occasions where they would proceed to offer before you even set foot on a plane let alone in the country.
Katie Rosser: [00:17:15]
Yeah, interesting. I actually thought it might be might not be as easy before you get here. That’s really good to know.
Lacey Near: [00:17:20]
Well, certainly at the executive level, yes. Particularly when you’ve worked in those big firms, you know, it it is a competitive market. And if they can secure somebody who can start pretty much immediately when they land, then that’s a win win.
Katie Rosser: [00:17:32]
Absolutely. So, Rebecca, what about the senior market? Same questions.
Rebecca Ellis: [00:17:36]
In terms if the visitor visa sponsorship and support is probably a bit hard as you can, referring to Lacey’s point, the typical demographic of somebody who is in a more senior level, it’s harder for them to get a visa unless they’ve got some ancestry, background or whatever. So in terms of sponsorship, again, it varies from firm to firm. Some firms do sponsor, but it’s a minority rule in the majority and is typically the big global law firms that understand global mobility and move people around the network they are able to sponsor the candidates. At senior manager upwards, there are a dearth of good candidates in London. You know, there are more roles than there are candidates. So, that means that they will wait for the right person. That means that they’re more likely to sponsor if they can. So some firms have a limit on the number of people that they’re able to sponsor in an organisation. So it’s not that they don’t want to bring in great talent. They’d love to be able to, but they’re actually limited on how many people they can bring in from overseas at a given time. So, I definitely think if you need sponsorship, it won’t be something you can’t do to move to the UK. It’s definitely a possibility and you should speak to us about how realistic is will be very honest.
Katie Rosser: [00:18:52]
Is there typical profile of somebody that would be more sponsorable, if that’s a word, than somebody else. You know, from, for example, the Australian market?
Rebecca Ellis: [00:19:02]
Yeah, probably somebody who’s got very strong, fresh overseas experience. I think without that strong global or international partnership experience from a law firm, accountancy practice, consulting business, I think without that people would struggle.
Katie Rosser: [00:19:17]
And in terms of people we might introduce you to, would it make much of a difference if they were in a big global brand versus, say, an Australian brand that UK partners might not be as familiar with? Would it make any difference if they’re generalist or client set? Or is it more just to do with the individual?
Rebecca Ellis: [00:19:34]
Probably more to do the individual. Actually, I mean, it makes sense if you’ve worked for a big brand because, you know, quickly, that resonates with somebody. But actually, it’s about the quality of the work that you’ve been doing. And, you know, it depends what you want to be doing here. I mean, if you’re looking to make a complete change in focus, if you’re coming from a generalist being CRM and don’t have any CRM experience someone’s not going to want to sponsor you to do that. So you have to have the requisite skill sets and they have to be able to prove that they can’t find that skillset in the UK.
Katie Rosser: [00:20:02]
Yes. So I think the message there is it’s per individual. You’ve got to come and have a conversation. Yeah.
Rebecca Ellis: [00:20:08]
And in terms of relocation, you know, numbers of firms will look if their firm is able to sponsor. They typically have global mobility teams who will help that person relocate to the UK. And that’s the same at various levels, really. So there’s often a relocation package that’s included in that offer. Some firms will give you more than others, but typically it involves flights for you and the family and then also some sort of a certain amount of luggage that they can bring back with them.
Katie Rosser: [00:20:42]
Would the same apply to that level candidates?
Lacey Near: [00:20:45]
Not for those on the youth mobility, as I mentioned earlier. And those with A.G., it doesn’t tend to as much because a lot of the roles at the executive level on aren’t sponsoring. So it’s kind of you getting here of your own accord.
Katie Rosser: [00:20:58]
They don’t have budget for it. Yeah.
Lacey Near: [00:21:00]
They don’t have budget for it. You know, they’re very happy to say make that process as easy as possible and in terms of facilitating interviews before. But it’s just not really part of the hiring package. You know, if I was relocating to Manchester, unfortunately, they wouldn’t pay for my train fare and moving. But yeah, their support when you get here.
Katie Rosser: [00:21:19]
Listening to your enthusiasm for the north earlier, I’m not sure you are going to move to Manchester!
Rebecca Ellis: [00:21:29]
Further to Lacey’s point earlier, can you get a job before you move here? So typically, again, like with the junior into the market for senior into the market. Yes, you can. Yeah. And you know, typically you’ll go through video conferencing and you might meet local partners, local BD professionals. If you’re in Hong Kong or Australia or even, you know, say yes, you will be able to do that. And firms will hire you on that basis. Sometimes, I mean, you know, it’s very difficult. It’s based on an individual. I think, you know, there is a there is a sense sometimes that as a candidate, you get more of an understanding about an organization if you can actually go there and meet people face to face and gut instinct about whether this is the right culture for you. It’s much easier if you’re not on a video conferencing facility and you can spend some time in the office with people face to face, but it’s not always possible.
Katie Rosser: [00:22:21]
So at the director head of role, specifically, how much of an issue would it be if someone were applying for roles but didn’t have experience in the UK market and up against people who do?
Rebecca Ellis: [00:22:33]
It massively depends on the organization and the role that you’re applying for. So, you know, at the moment we have got we’re working with a number of candidates who are returning from Asia, some of whom have been in Asia for a long period of time, actually. And so the roles that they’re successful interviewing for where firms are interested is the big global organizations, the Magic circle firms who understand that they’ve been working for similar brands in Asia and for a number of years. So they understand how it links together the work that they’ve been doing. They’re working typically in global roles anyway, so there’ll be some exposure to Asia, still global clients. You know that they get that big global network. Where it’s harder as if it’s a regional role. So, for example, we’ve got a role at the moment for director business development with a London office of a U.S. law firm. Now, they’re not interesting candidates who’ve spent five or six years in Asia because they don’t understand the London market in a way that somebody local in London would. They need to build out their business in London if they haven’t had the opportunity to work with somebody who’s been in the London market for the last few years, they do think that that’s a you know, that could be an issue. It’s typically the global firms. And actually, I think that candidates coming back from Asia particularly or moving over from Australia, it wouldn’t be a problem.
Katie Rosser: [00:23:51]
Yeah. And it’s interesting. I think it goes without saying almost a British returner would be very attractive to the U.K. market. What about Australians, New Zealanders? How attractive are they in the UK?
Lacey Near: [00:24:05]
So at the executive level, generally it depends on the individual. But generally speaking, very attractive. A lot of the exact senior exact junior manager roles in the Australian market are very broad and all encompassing across all different disciplines in marketing and BD. And that tends to be the case in a lot of the sort of practice BD executive roles that we might get. And as I mentioned earlier, they can then also move into these new roles within the marketing sphere that we’re having a rise in London over the last few years and I imagine that will continue to grow.
Lacey Near: [00:24:41]
And another point worth making is that those from Australia coming from across other professional services. So we do get a lot that might be in sort of construction or the built environment and that can transfer very well. They’re sort of transactional bids experience can again transfer very well or those with strong sort of oil and gas or project finance. These are all areas that are, you know, big in London as well. And they’re quite big teams in London and having those that have got quite broad BD and marketing experience usually supporting a relatively large group because the team, you know, again, generally speaking, is smaller in Australia. So having somebody that’s coming with that real depth and breadth of experience into London is very attractive our clients.
Katie Rosser: [00:25:25]
Yeah. Good to know. So we’ve talked about relocation packages. What other benefits are usual in the UK when someone gets their offer letter? What kind of things are going to be included?
Rebecca Ellis: [00:25:37]
Most law firms in London and in the UK have really good benefits package and are comparable to lots of other financial services and professional services organizations. So typically, you know, you’ll have obviously pension, healthcare, life insurance. All of those sorts of standard benefits. And in addition to that, most firms do pay a bonus. Now, the UK, there are some exceptions to that, but most do, particularly from a manager upwards. It massively varies on the firm the percentage, but you could look at anything between about 5 and 20 percent for a bonus paid nearly and it’s a discretionary bonus based on firm and individual performance. And then the larger law firms in London have gyms on site, doctors on site. You know, all sorts of things where the lawyers have access to and as do business services professionals as well. So, benefits packages tend to be pretty good.
Katie Rosser: [00:26:31]
One big difference there for anyone in Australia is that the pension, which is the version of our superannuation, is on top rather than deducted from salaries. That’s probably one deep key difference from our market.
Lacey Near: [00:26:41]
And the amount of days annual leave per annum is pretty good as well. On average, sort of 25, maybe going up to 30. If you’re coming over to London. You’re probably interested in travelling around Europe. So that works out pretty good as well.
Katie Rosser: [00:26:55]
So look, to summarise and wrap up. I think one key message is if you’re thinking about the UK market really get in touch with us at Seldon Rosser, myself, Graham or Nanik, will introduce you to the guys here at Totum and they’ll give you really honest advice about your specific situation and how easy it might be to help you look at the UK market. Totum obviously cover the whole of the UK as well as London.
Katie Rosser: [00:27:20]
Would you be interested in hearing from people who are wanting to move to mainland Europe as well?
Rebecca Ellis: [00:27:25]
It’s much harder for us to help candidates to mainland Europe. I mean, we have a very good client base here and you know, we have access to two roles in mainland Europe. The main issue is if you don’t have a language, I think it becomes harder for you, actually. So if you’re going to Paris or to Germany, that language capability today is really important.
Katie Rosser: [00:27:46]
Yeah, okay. That’s really interesting. Okay. So to wrap up, the London market we’ll focus on London for this bit. Why not? The London market reasons why people would work here – three words from each of you. Lacey, go.
Lacey Near: [00:28:01]
Oh, God! I was going to say something like career development but that’s really boring, isn’t it? So the London market is very fun. I guess it’s really fun. You’ll have a lot of peers (and I’m using way more than three words). So, fun because you’re going to have a lot of peers and a lot of big teams. Development, I would certainly say, you know, there are so many opportunities in London in some really big brands and some fantastic teams. So development has to be word number two. And number three, I’m going to say travelling because everyone likes that so just go for it.
Katie Rosser: [00:28:37]
And if you’ve moved here, you like travelling.
Lacey Near: [00:28:38]
And make the most of it. And you’re going to have decent annual leave. I know that doesn’t sell the roles in itself, but you know, if it can be part of your career development and I think it’s an awesome opportunity.
Katie Rosser: [00:28:46]
Well, fun team travel, annual leave. And I think there was another one in there development. That’s a great list, Rebecca. We left anything for you?
Rebecca Ellis: [00:28:55]
Not very much.
Rebecca Ellis: [00:28:56]
I would say that there’s an amazing network in London. So, again, this is more than more than one word. So an amazing network of individuals that work across the legal sector. And therefore, you know, you’re coming to the environment, which is really supportive. They’re used to bring in people from overseas. So they will make an effort to make people feel really welcome and integrate them into the business.
Katie Rosser: [00:29:17]
Fantastic. Sounds good.
Well, thank you so much for your time today, you two. Great to be on your lovely offices in London and spend some time with you.
Rebecca Ellis: [00:29:26]
Thanks so much, Katie.